Howdy Guest!  / Create an account
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
40 year study finds ghosts don't exist
#21
On the contrary, in the vastness of the unknown everything is possible.

You're quite correct Ishamael, the scientific answer is that anything is possible.
It's possible that (despite a lack of good evidence) ghosts, psychics, lake monsters, demons and bigfoot exist. Since no one is omniscient, no one has all the answers and therefore absolute certainty is not a realistic option - especially in matters of fact and science.
Is it possible that smoking doesn't cause lung cancer but rather some factor that no one has yet discovered?.
Is it possible that O.J. Simpson did not kill his ex-wife and her lover?.
Is it possible that Princess Diana is actually alive and living in seclusion, that a hired imposter was instead killed in that Paris tunnel?. Is it possible that men didn't land on the Moon and the whole event was faked?. Is it possible we're all simply brains in a Vat or a figment of someone's dream?.
All these things are possible and absolutely no one - scientists, investigators, CNN or Stephen Hawking can prove conclusively that they are not.
The question is not what is possible but what the evidence shows and what is reasonable. The 'possible' argument is just a superficial red herring - it's a very weak foundation for either personal philosophy or legal argument.

people in science believe that if it hasn't any proof, or it hasn't been discovered, then it is not a possibility

If that's the case how does science make new discoveries or progress?. Science begins with a Hypothesis which is then subject to testing where scientists try to prove it incorrect, it then, if not disproven goes on to become a theory eg Evolution or Gravity which themselves are still open to challenge and possible change - given valid evidence.

DB

Sources: Scientific Paranormal Investigation: Benjamin Radford
Pseudoscience & the Paranormal: Terence Hines
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
Reply
#22
(01-19-2011, 03:42 AM)D B Sweeney Wrote: The question is not what is possible but what the evidence shows and what is reasonable. The 'possible' argument is just a superficial red herring - it's a very weak foundation for either personal philosophy or legal argument.
The claim I put forward was not solely based off of the "possible" argument. It was based off of the lack of support to prove the opposite of ghosts existing. This is quite the foundation for both personal philosophy and legal argument. In fact, no one can be convicted on grounds that do not specifically point to the accused committing that crime. In fact the term used to describe this lack of evidence is called "reasonable" doubt. If we take it from that stand-point, your evidence is not "reasonable" in the sense that there is still reason for people out there to believe that ghosts exist. There is reasonable doubt found in the article's claims, thus there is room to believe they can exist.

From a personal philosophy standpoint, this also makes a strong stand. Simply put, the science is not showing a theory that is not logically sound. Ask any philosopher, they will tell you that inductive reasoning is not sufficient enough to argue for science's case of ghosts not existing. Like was said before, you can suggest it, and further deductive experiments may be taken. But, in this case, you can't imply the conclusion on an inductive standpoint.

(01-19-2011, 03:42 AM)D B Sweeney Wrote: If that's the case how does science make new discoveries or progress?. Science begins with a Hypothesis which is then subject to testing where scientists try to prove it incorrect, it then, if not disproven goes on to become a theory eg Evolution or Gravity which themselves are still open to challenge and possible change - given valid evidence.

On this, I am the kind of man that will own up to his miscommunication and mistakes. I agree, if there was not the initial hypothesis or interest to go testing for things, discoveries would never be made. The people who claim the non-existence of things, that have not been discovered, are just the extremes on the side of science (Just as religion has their own on their side).
[Image: Banner1.png]
Reply
#23
The claim I put forward.....(etc) you can't imply the conclusion on an inductive standpoint.
That's a logical fallacy - Ad ignoratum: appeal to ignorance, the idea that whatever is not known to be false must be true or vice versa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Philosophers aren't scientists and ultimately it will be science that conclusively proves or disproves life after death. Philosophers can speculate until the sun goes out but scientists will test, experiment and progress towards a theory based on empirical evidence.

DB
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
Reply
#24
(01-15-2011, 07:32 AM)D B Sweeney Wrote: So why are people out hunting them???? Seems like a big expence and waste of time to go on ghost hunts......

Because they like to get scared, they enjoy the excitement, it's a hobby, because it's fun or because they want to be scientists at the forefront of paranormal investigation.
Why do folks go to scary movies knowing that Jason or Freddy is going to make them jump? - movies aren't cheap if you add up the costs over a year based on an average of 2 visits per month - it could also be described as a waste of time. Then again what you describe as a waste of time is someone else's hobby or vocation.
I think hunting deer is a waste of time. I think Golf is a pointless hobby - they're purely my subjective opinions.
The vast majority of recreational ghost hunters are doing it for the excitement and the buzz - from what I've seen they're not doing it to advance the cause of parapsychology or to find definitive proof of the afterlife - not if they're using programmes like TAPS as scientific templates. They're also going out 'hunting' with the belief already in place that ghosts exist and as such what ever they find is tainted by a big dose of expectation and confirmation bias.

I guess most people just have to be stared in the face by a ghost to really believe in them.

If I was stared in the face by a ghost that would not mean I would automatically believe in them - there could be numerous reasons why I may not actually be looking at the spirit of a dead person.
If you were stared in the face by Bigfoot whilst out walking in the woods, in for example Oregon, would you then believe in Bigfoot?. Do you believe that seeing (first hand) is all that is necessary in order to confirm the definitive truth of something?.

I wish i had seen this study as a child, my life would have been so much easier, not having to deal with the other side....

What does dealing with the other side involve for you if you don't mind me asking?. Don't answer if you don't want to.

DB

Without going into to much detail, i have always been in touch with the spirit world. This gift/curse has always been with me and i know no other way of life. I used to talk about it more, but got tired of hearing, have you checked the plumbing, the pipes, ect: That was an insult to my intelligence, as yes, i always take into consideration what it could have been.

I am not one to hear a bump in the night and assume its a ghost or demon!!!! I am a grown woman, and know the difference. My family always called it ESP. Whatever it is called, both my parents have also had many experiences througout thier lives.

I am very skeptical, and have helped many figure out what is going on in thier home. On the other hand, sometimes there is no logical answer.

I dont go looking for ghosts, i am not a ghost hunter. When things happen, they just happen, including knowing what others are going through, feeling thier pain, knowing thier thoughts, and this is not a very good trait, most of the time.

Many have never had any dealings with the spirit world, so they have no clue on what its like. I really have always wished that i didnt know what i do, it can be very hard to deal with at times. To me, its not a gift.

I hope this helped without getting into detail.
Pride and Fear always distort the truth into either a false sense of security or a lack of confidence and diminished self-worth.

Angel WIngs



Reply
#25
(01-20-2011, 05:50 AM)D B Sweeney Wrote: The claim I put forward.....(etc) you can't imply the conclusion on an inductive standpoint.
That's a logical fallacy - Ad ignoratum: appeal to ignorance, the idea that whatever is not known to be false must be true or vice versa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Philosophers aren't scientists and ultimately it will be science that conclusively proves or disproves life after death. Philosophers can speculate until the sun goes out but scientists will test, experiment and progress towards a theory based on empirical evidence.

Your proposition that my claim would be a logical fallacy would be true, if I actually made the claim that would appeal to ignorance. In fact, I just said that you cannot logically prove or disprove something with inductive arguments and reasoning. Even my implications did not claim to the idea to that ghosts must exist because science insufficiently disproved them.

Yes, philosophers aren't scientists, and some of them are. However, I completely disagree in your claim that science will conclusively prove or disprove anything about the spirit world. Since they are trying to collect empirical evidence on an immaterial topic, and in immaterial realm, it would seem as if their attempts are made in vain. I'm not saying that they can't continue to try, but I think they will long give-up before they find out. Then, it just comes down to the question of whether or not they are going to make a poorly founded generalization on the topic, or claim that it is impossible for them to find the answers.
[Image: Banner1.png]
Reply
#26
(01-20-2011, 08:34 AM)K2M Wrote: Without going into to much detail, i have always been in touch with the spirit world. This gift/curse has always been with me and i know no other way of life. I used to talk about it more, but got tired of hearing, have you checked the plumbing, the pipes, ect: That was an insult to my intelligence, as yes, i always take into consideration what it could have been.

I am not one to hear a bump in the night and assume its a ghost or demon!!!! I am a grown woman, and know the difference. My family always called it ESP. Whatever it is called, both my parents have also had many experiences througout thier lives.

I am very skeptical, and have helped many figure out what is going on in thier home. On the other hand, sometimes there is no logical answer.

I dont go looking for ghosts, i am not a ghost hunter. When things happen, they just happen, including knowing what others are going through, feeling thier pain, knowing thier thoughts, and this is not a very good trait, most of the time.

Many have never had any dealings with the spirit world, so they have no clue on what its like. I really have always wished that i didnt know what i do, it can be very hard to deal with at times. To me, its not a gift.

I hope this helped without getting into detail.

I fully understand what you're saying K2M and I'm sure you now deal with it in your own way.
Because something is unexplainable by an individual doesn't mean it's unexplainable or supernatural in nature. How and why people report seemingly paranormal encounters is a complex subject that encompasses numerous disciplines - all of which have to be investigated thoroughly before we can categorically conclude that it's genuinely unexplainable or supernatural. In over 35 years of study and research (including numerous investigations) I can honestly say that I can count the genuinely unexplainable cases I've read or come across on the fingers of one hand - even then there may have been errors in the witnessing or reporting of those cases. We're all human and we're all fallible no matter how much we know we know.

DB
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
Reply
#27
Ishamael I will add to the person with super human strength, this happens from something called adrenaline pump. Anyone can have it happen, does it mean its a demon? no
People on drugs often have adrenaline pump, children with a chemical imbalance can experience this as well. A woman was able to fight off a polar bear as it threatened her son..... a demon? I don't think so. We hear about someone trapped under a car .... adrenaline pump allows super human strength to pick up the car.

As we study paranormal the more i do the more reasons I find its not.
Belief bias occurs when we make illogical conclusions in order to confirm our preexisting beliefs. Belief perseverance refers to our tendency to maintain a belief even after the evidence we used to form the belief is contradicted.
Reply
#28
(01-20-2011, 12:49 PM)D B Sweeney Wrote: you cannot logically prove or disprove something with inductive arguments and reasoning.
But you can look at the evidence and decide if it's logical to conclude that ghosts exist. Overwhelmingly the evidence or more importantly the lack of it points to the fact that ghosts are a construct of the human imagination - granted, a very fascinating and complex construct but not independent entities that 'live' in some ethereal world occasionally visiting us when the fancy takes them.
When making such generalized claims, it is never "logical" to conclude something inductively. Logical arguments are those based on a sound deductive basis. When you approach something inductively, you are looking at individual instances, and trying to find whether the evidence found would render the truth of the conclusion probable. This is a cogent inductive argument (strong). Unfortunately, even if an argument is cogent, the premises/evidence found does not necessarily entail the conclusion to be true. Once more, any hasty generalizations brought about by scientist's inductive reasoning is not valid, IMO and in the majority of the logical community.

(01-20-2011, 12:49 PM)D B Sweeney Wrote: Since they are trying to collect empirical evidence on an immaterial topic, and in immaterial realm
I'm not sure how you arrive at this conclusion - that ghosts inhabit an immaterial realm - how do you know?.
I will answer your question with a question: What makes you believe that ghosts might inhabit a realm in which you can successfully measure their being?

(01-20-2011, 12:49 PM)D B Sweeney Wrote: or claim that it is impossible for them to find the answers.
Powered flight was thought impossible until fairly recently as was space flight and faster than sound travel - many things that were thought impossible are now part of our everyday lives - thanks to the efforts of science which seeks to make the impossible possible...step by tiny step.
Maybe string theory or advances in quantum physics will open up new dimensions inside which the soul resides?. However at the moment there's no scientific evidence for life after death or ghosts - just anecdotes, misperception and a desire to believe.
This last paragraph I will approach in pieces. However at the moment there's no scientific evidence for life after death or ghosts -just anecdotes, misperception and a desire to believe. Once more, this is an inductive argument. For it to have any cogency, you must test EVERYTHING, which scientists have not done, and now cannot do. This claim is not cogent; thus, it is a good depiction of the fallacy that is known as a hasty generalization. Claim is not applicable here.

many things that were thought impossible are now part of our everyday lives This is the root of everything else you said in the above paragraph. I will re-post the supports in a moment. First, I would like to point out how much I agree with the statement, in and of itself. I think that most people who believe in God and ghosts, demons, etc. Have this very outlook on the subjects in relation to science. What you all deem to be impossible may one day become a part of our everyday lives.

Your supports only go to enforce the validity of this belief. Powered flight was thought impossible until fairly recently as was space flight and faster than sound travel.
Maybe string theory or advances in quantum physics will open up new dimensions inside which the soul resides? This is a valid and sound deductive claim. The tendency does seem to be that one day we might find this new dimension; however, this is still far from fact, but still also far from scientifically disproved.

Before I make my final comment for this post, I would like to make clear that I am not attacking DB here in specific. In TP he is advocating and putting forward the scientific stand-point that the article, in OP's first post, is being interpreted as to be implying. This is simply taking apart such an argument to show that there really is no clear claim as the title suggests.

Finally DB, the first part of your paragraph stays to the same nature of the article, in its use of and support of the words such as "maybe". This does stay close to the clearly uncertain nature of the topic at hand. My question for you is how you could then move to make such a hasty generalizations, claiming the certain non-existence of ghosts? Your last post may not have semantically portrayed it, IE you just noted the lack of supporting evidence, but your wording and previous posts definitely imply it.
[Image: Banner1.png]
Reply
#29
Let's keep on topic please, the subject is in reference to the study which has been specified.
Reply
#30
When making such generalized claims etc majority of the logical community. See previous answer.

What makes you believe that ghosts might inhabit a realm in which you can successfully measure their being?
I don't believe in ghosts inhabiting any realm other than the Brain.

Once more, this is an inductive argument. For the sake of clarity 'inductive argument' or 'inductive reasoning' simply means making an educated guess - the key word being 'educated'.
Scientists are not testing everything in order to determine if ghosts are real - probably because on the basis of the evidence so far (or lack of it) it would be a waste of effort and resources when we have far more pressing issues facing mankind.

I think that most people who believe in God and ghosts, demons, etc. Have this very outlook on the subjects in relation to science.
God, ghosts and demons have been around for thousands of years but I see as much valid evidence for them now as existed thousands of years ago. On that basis proof is not gonna be forthcoming anytime soon.

DB
My question for you is how you could then move to make such a hasty generalizations, claiming the certain non-existence of ghosts? Your last post may not have semantically portrayed it, IE you just noted the lack of supporting evidence, but your wording and previous posts definitely imply it.

Nothing is certain in life Ishamael. I don't know if god exists, I don't know if ghosts exist but I can form a reasonable opinion based on what we know - what the evidence suggests.
Quite simply I'm a sceptic. I'm sure you know what a sceptic is. That's all I really need to say.
Icontexto-emoticons-03-032x032

DB
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Do ghosts exist? If not, why do we see them? UglyNRude 16 3,391 01-12-2018, 11:29 AM
Last Post: KaelisRa
  Question: Is science open to proving ghosts exist? magicdavidpa 6 8,639 09-01-2013, 08:45 AM
Last Post: jonathan livingstone seagull



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)






About Talk Paranormal Forum

...

              Quick Links

              User Links

             ...

  • ...
  • ...
  • ...
  • ...