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Who is yr Favorite Demon, and Why?
#11
Still doesn't morph you into something surreal with powers to do physical harm.
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#12
Well, no. Morphing would imply that your body changes into something reminiscent of a demon. When you die, you're dead. The argument is that Lilith would kill herself, as that affront to God. Thereby embracing her malice and hatred for him, and then in the afterlife she became something far more foreboding than a human soul. Her soul twisted and contorted into that of the first demon.

I don't get what you're trying to argue. You can make the rebuttal that "Demons don't exist. When we die, we're dead." but that just changes the subject from what we're talking about. If Lilith existed, was she a demon? I could argue yes, with my suggestion.
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#13
Can you show me some official text about Lillith being a demon?
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#14
Mika gave you a bunch lol
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#15
8 sources, to be exact.  A translation of the portion of Genesis that was removed (aka one of the Dead Sea Scrolls) along with two secular references, and 5 from Christian or Jewish non-profit organizations.


I never wanted this to be a theological discussion.  But, as it has clearly become one… I expect a reasoned, scholarly argument in return.  Not just random statements with no explanation as to why you believe they are true.

“Mika, if I start calling you a demon for thousands of years, does that make you a demon? (Lilith) was born a human, she died a human. Just because you're called something because of a defiant act doesn't change your species.”

I totally agree with the idea nthat some guy named Joe or Walter calling me a demon for all eternity would not make me one.  However, if 3 major organized religions… Christianity, Islam and Judaism… had been calling me a demon for thousands of years… I might start to question a few of my life choices  ; )


It is the general consensus in the world’s two largest religions… Christianity at 2.3 billion and Islam at 1.8 billion… that Lilith (Hawwa) is a demon.  Either one of those groups has more adherents than the next two largest combined… Hinduism, at 1.1 billion and Buddhism, at .5 billion.  Does that prove that Lilith was an actual demon?  No.  But it’s a pretty strong argument that she might have been one.

My question to you, Vultyrex, would be a mirror of the one you posed to KaelisRa… can you cite some biblical or scholarly text that shows that Lilith was not a demon?  That she was no more than human and died as such.  I cited 8 sources... but if you can cite just one, I'll call it a draw.

The ball is in yr court.

Incidentally, Lilith would sooo kick Crowley's bum.  No offense, KaelisRa  8 D 
 
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#16
You didn't cite anything other than make mere mention of them. I guess I'll have to Google and look at those sources of yours and then get back to you at some point although I already think I have an answer for the dead sea scrolls but until then.
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#17
Didn't Lilith eat dirt, as per Sam? Crowley's still toying with them. ;P
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#18
Ok, so I looked into Lilith and it seems that the story began with Lillith being Adam's first wife. Now, God wanting Adam to lay with a demon in the first place is nonsense. So therefore she can't be a demon however, I did notice this...

Lilith was obnoxious and selfish. So selfish that she wanted to be Adam's superior. She soon left because she sough her own power and God had made Eve for Adam. The story of Cain and Abel is widely known and when Cain was marked and then exiled out of the kingdom, Cain married an unknown person. Some say he had to only marry one of his sisters (Awan, according to the Book of Jubilees) since his parents are Adam and Eve. Some suspect that he ran into Lilith and married her. Allowing her to fulfill her wanton desire for power and control.

Now, I said that last scenario because of of Awan. She is an completely unknown person. It's never even said if Awan was a daughter of Adam and Eve. Only the book of Jubilee mentions that Awan is Enoch's mother. Awan is also known as Avan or Aven. It's very close to Avian which of the bird family. A screech owl, a hag, etc etc, deals with birds; Could it be possible that Awan is Lilith?Hell, even Lilith loosely translated means "night creatures", "night monster", "night hag", or "screech owl". Who knows but I digress.

As for this Lilith being a demon. The evidence of the thousands of years dictate this; Lilith's faults for power and control gave his a known look. So when she died and stories were told, it was through the stories that demonized her. It was sayings akin to "Don't become a Lilith." or "You just Lilith that.". I ask this, even is Lilith was a demon, what was she a demon of? All demons have some sort of gimmick. What was hers? Now, before you spout off about newborns, I will answer first why I won't accept that answer. It's because of the source. The book "Alphabet of Sirach" is known for it's satirical nature. So anything in it can not be concluded as factual. So, now we are back to square one. There's mention of her in various places but nothing of demonic nature.

As for you citing anything, you did not provide any links, Mika. You can not simply say you have 8 sources and say you're right without any linking. I would need to confirm your sources by checking them myself. You said it's a draw. This is far from a draw. I've googled a lot of sources. Many than your simple "8 sources" and even looked at the books myself to make my conclusion.

tl;dr
lilith isn't a demon and never was.
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#19
Quote:Lilith was obnoxious and selfish. So selfish that she wanted to be Adam's superior. She soon left because she sough her own power and God had made Eve for Adam. The story of Cain and Abel is widely known and when Cain was marked and then exiled out of the kingdom, Cain married an unknown person. Some say he had to only marry one of his sisters (Awan, according to the Book of Jubilees) since his parents are Adam and Eve. Some suspect that he ran into Lilith and married her. Allowing her to fulfill her wanton desire for power and control. 

This was an interesting little "aside", but was nothing more than that. It doesn't show that she isn't a demon, simply that she wasn't at one point.

Quote:Now, I said that last scenario because of of Awan. She is an completely unknown person. It's never even said if Awan was a daughter of Adam and Eve. Only the book of Jubilee mentions that Awan is Enoch's mother. Awan is also known as Avan or Aven. It's very close to Avian which of the bird family. A screech owl, a hag, etc etc, deals with birds; Could it be possible that Awan is Lilith?Hell, even Lilith loosely translated means "night creatures", "night monster", "night hag", or "screech owl". Who knows but I digress. 

Mere conjecture. There was nothing here that points to any of that. Just because something seems similar doesn't mean it is identical. You do digress, maybe to come off as if you can draw certain connection. However, the connections, in your later post, fail.

Quote:As for this Lilith being a demon. The evidence of the thousands of years dictate this; Lilith's faults for power and control gave his a known look. So when she died and stories were told, it was through the stories that demonized her. It was sayings akin to "Don't become a Lilith." or "You just Lilith that.". I ask this, even is Lilith was a demon, what was she a demon of? All demons have some sort of gimmick. What was hers? Now, before you spout off about newborns, I will answer first why I won't accept that answer. It's because of the source. The book "Alphabet of Sirach" is known for it's satirical nature. So anything in it can not be concluded as factual. So, now we are back to square one. There's mention of her in various places but nothing of demonic nature. 

More conjecture, followed by an unfounded claim, and then a rebuttal to a point nobody would make because the claim was unfounded.
There are two paths to take in this train of logic. You sort of amalgamated the two, and then applied poor logic to refute it. 
Either A) Demons exist. If demons exist and she died , her resolute hatred and malice would have found her spirit contorted into something demonic. Demons used to be proper souls, corrupted by these powerful negative emotions. Stories can be told of a demon.
Or B) Demons do not exist. Her past was demonized, and stories were told of her as a demon. Stories can be told of a demon, when they do not exist.

Lastly, it does not follow that demons must follow some sort of gimmick. The nature of a demon's creation does not necessitate it, neither does the existence of a demon. There are plenty of demons that wouldn't classify as any kind of gimmick, yet still run amok and wreak havoc. However, if you had to place Lilith as a specific gimmick, it wouldn't be "newborns". it would be the wanton sexuality and destruction, that you so kindly listed above.

If you do not believe that satire can be factual, you aren't exactly familiar with the use of satire. You're more than likely to go off and find a definition for satire now, and you'll still be wrong. If you understand what satire brings to the table, you would understand its underlying factual nature. It's dependent on facts, in order to be effective.

As for you last sentence, there are instances of her being referred to and implied to be a demon. You haven't proven she wasn't considered a demon. If you want to prove that she wasn't a demon, because demons don't exist, then that's a different story. However, you haven't proven that she wasn't considered a demon.
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#20
KaelisRa, you have no idea what I'm talking about and you appear to be argumentive without counterpoint at best. You claiming that demons don't exist is your own conjecture as well. All the text I've said was exact or paraphrased from the source material that was read. If you've a problem with it, take it up with the people who dug up the books and the people who translated the text.
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