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I don't understand the sacrifice
07-22-2017, 09:23 AM
Post: #1
I don't understand the sacrifice
For years I've been nagged by why Jesus's death is called a sacrifice. "For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son..."

Jesus knew his physical death was only temporary and that he would return to heaven. Contrast this to a soldier on the battlefield who throws himself on a live grenade to save his teammates. He has no prior knowledge that he'll go to heaven. He's willing to die nonetheless. Isn't his act more of a sacrifice?

And God didn't really "give" his son. Jesus returned to heaven in 3 days to "sit on his right hand."

What say you, Don (or anyone else)? I know this has come up on another forum and you agreed it was a good question. Can you please give this more thought? Would appreciate it!

R
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07-22-2017, 10:06 AM (This post was last modified: 07-22-2017 10:15 AM by Kayt.)
Post: #2
RE: I don't understand the sacrifice
What about the Ransom theory?
Adam & Eve it is said sold us to the Devil & God needed to pay a ransom to get us back. But the Devil was tricked as the Devil did not realise that Christ's death was only temporary.
Thus it could very easily be argued that the sacrifice was of Jesus, not by Jesus & it could also be argued it was not a sacrifice at all, not really. As Death was not complete.
In Church terms we could say that what they did was put their money in the collection bag & then took it back by slight a few days later.
It could also be said, Jesus was not so different to the farm animals he was born amongst, as he was created to die for human needs, just like them.
A second thought. What about the Gnostic Gospel of Judas?
Could it not be argued that a great sacrifice was indeed made & that it was made by Judas?
The Gnostic gospels are clear that the real God is "gracious" & does not demand ANY sacrifice. Although Judas did sacrifice himself, but not in death, but in the lower, more base. Understanding of him & what he truly did.
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07-22-2017, 01:05 PM
Post: #3
RE: I don't understand the sacrifice
It's my understanding that Jesus was sacrificed as a means to end any need or belief that sacrifice was necessary for atonement. I'm not sure why sacrifices in the Old Testament came about. Perhaps there were cultural beliefs that God needed to be appeased in some way so he would look favorably on people, or that a sacrifice was necessary for redemption or to make one "right" with God.

That belief seems to still exist in the New Testament where people believe that in order to be reconciled to God they must believe that Jesus lived a Holy life, suffered and died as payment for their sins as a final sacrifice to God and that God's forgiveness is granted to those that believe in Jesus. There's mixed versions of thought depending on various Christian groups.

Some say belief in Christ is all that is needed for redemption, others believe that both faith and works are needed. I tend to feel that "works" is not required, but God's grace by the Holy Spirit automatically fosters the attitude, the essence within, to where one lives his/her life with gratitude and willingness to be of service.

Jesus was fully human and as such we all know the suffering of human experience, so perhaps the greatest sacrifice was in living life as a human.
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07-22-2017, 01:12 PM (This post was last modified: 07-22-2017 01:19 PM by Darkforeboding.)
Post: #4
RE: I don't understand the sacrifice
(07-22-2017 09:23 AM)rondele Wrote:  For years I've been nagged by why Jesus's death is called a sacrifice. "For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son..."

Jesus knew his physical death was only temporary and that he would return to heaven. Contrast this to a soldier on the battlefield who throws himself on a live grenade to save his teammates. He has no prior knowledge that he'll go to heaven. He's willing to die nonetheless. Isn't his act more of a sacrifice?

And God didn't really "give" his son. Jesus returned to heaven in 3 days to "sit on his right hand."

What say you, Don (or anyone else)? I know this has come up on another forum and you agreed it was a good question. Can you please give this more thought? Would appreciate it!

R

You raise some good and deep points, but Christ did endure the pain and torture involved in his death, even though Christ knew where he was going after his time on Earth.

Consider this, also. Let's say you were rich and lived in a fantastic mansion, but your son tells you he wants to go to the poorest place on Earth and help save victims of a famine. Even if you were sure he was coming back would you want him to have to live in squalor, go hungry, and suffer all the conditions he'd have to endure. That would be a sacrifice.

(07-22-2017 01:05 PM)Kai_ Wrote:  It's my understanding that Jesus was sacrificed as a means to end any need or belief that sacrifice was necessary for atonement. I'm not sure why sacrifices in the Old Testament came about. Perhaps there were cultural beliefs that God needed to be appeased in some way so he would look favorably on people, or that a sacrifice was necessary for redemption or to make one "right" with God.

That belief seems to still exist in the New Testament where people believe that in order to be reconciled to God they must believe that Jesus lived a Holy life, suffered and died as payment for their sins as a final sacrifice to God and that God's forgiveness is granted to those that believe in Jesus. There's mixed versions of thought depending on various Christian groups.

Some say belief in Christ is all that is needed for redemption, others believe that both faith and works are needed. I tend to feel that "works" is not required, but God's grace by the Holy Spirit automatically fosters the attitude, the essence within, to where one lives his/her life with gratitude and willingness to be of service.

Jesus was fully human and as such we all know the suffering of human experience, so perhaps the greatest sacrifice was in living life as a human.

The New Testament differs with the Old Testament on the ideas of sacrifice. The New Testament states that Old Testament sacrifices never really atoned for sin. Why were sacrifices required then? So that people would understand and know that there were penalties for sin.

-DFB

Subject: I have a black cat.
Believer: Black cats are bad luck.
Non-believer: It's just a cat.
Crackpot: Black cats are part of the New World Order government conspiracy.
Skeptic: I can test if black cats are more or less lucky than another cat.
Cynic: You only have a black cat to gain power and prestige.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9iIf4tFoyE
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07-22-2017, 02:13 PM
Post: #5
RE: I don't understand the sacrifice
(07-22-2017 01:12 PM)Darkforeboding Wrote:  The New Testament differs with the Old Testament on the ideas of sacrifice. The New Testament states that Old Testament sacrifices never really atoned for sin. Why were sacrifices required then? So that people would understand and know that there were penalties for sin.

The gnostic Gospel of Judas, says that the other Disciples did not understand the teachings & were not thus given the full teachings. It says the Disciples other than Judas were obsessed with the physical universe.
The clear implication is that the New Testament is based upon a partial & misunderstood interpretation of what was taught.
Not surprisingly the established churches do not like the challenge to their belief system.
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07-23-2017, 04:26 AM (This post was last modified: 07-23-2017 04:36 AM by crossbow.)
Post: #6
RE: I don't understand the sacrifice
Hi R.

Jesus dying for our sins cannot be understood before we understand forgiveness, which was his central teaching.
And when we understand forgiveness -- what it is and what it does -- then his death and sacrifice make perfect sense.

cb
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07-25-2017, 11:25 AM
Post: #7
RE: I don't understand the sacrifice
(07-23-2017 04:26 AM)crossbow Wrote:  Hi R.

Jesus dying for our sins cannot be understood before we understand forgiveness, which was his central teaching.
And when we understand forgiveness -- what it is and what it does -- then his death and sacrifice make perfect sense.

cb

So by dying, he forgave all sins, past/present/prospective and took them upon himself. But I don't know how sacrifice comes into play. Sacrifice means giving up something for another's benefit. I sacrifice my life so someone else can live.

What exactly did Jesus sacrifice? The only thing I can think of is that he sacrificed his divinity by taking on our sins.

Sorry if I sound dense but I really want to understand this.

R
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07-25-2017, 03:51 PM
Post: #8
RE: I don't understand the sacrifice
In my understanding sacrificing his divinity could be one way to look at it, especially when you look at a few things Jesus said: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. And on the cross he said: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Jesus experienced complete separation from God, something we will not experience because of his sacrifice. I think we can only get a glimpse of what separation from God would be like. Hell is described as fire and brimstone, gnashing of teeth, etc., but I'm not sure we could ever completely understand what that would be like since because of Jesus, we will never have to experience that kind of separation.
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07-26-2017, 07:19 AM (This post was last modified: 07-26-2017 07:21 AM by crossbow.)
Post: #9
RE: I don't understand the sacrifice
To forgive someone, they must do you harm, or at least be trying to.

You're not dense, Rondele. I don't want to spell it out because it is better when people see it themselves. The answer is in the understanding of forgiveness, and what forgiveness is and does. Ponder forgiveness. Pray to understand it. When you see the answer, you will wonder why you could not see it before.

cb
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07-26-2017, 07:30 AM
Post: #10
RE: I don't understand the sacrifice
But what about all the stories of others before jesus that seem to be where the jesus story was created from? How can you put so much faith in something that appears to just be a story?
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-chris...ate-jesus/

Belief bias occurs when we make illogical conclusions in order to confirm our preexisting beliefs. Belief perseverance refers to our tendency to maintain a belief even after the evidence we used to form the belief is contradicted.
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