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I don't understand the sacrifice
(07-26-2017, 08:19 AM)crossbow Wrote: To forgive someone, they must do you harm, or at least be trying to.

You're not dense, Rondele. I don't want to spell it out because it is better when people see it themselves. The answer is in the understanding of forgiveness, and what forgiveness is and does. Ponder forgiveness. Pray to understand it. When you see the answer, you will wonder why you could not see it before.


Forgiveness sets us free. It releases us from the bondage of hate and revenge. Not to say there won't be times when we'll be angered, and justifiably so. And times when we must take action against those who may intend to do us harm.

But while I understand the value of forgiveness I don't see the connection with sacrifice. What exactly is being sacrificed? And if it's God/Jesus, what did they sacrifice? When you ask others, most will say it was God who sacrificed his son (or Jesus who willingly sacrificed himself).

Neither of those make sense to me for reasons already mentioned.


Is like chess, the player can sacrifice a piece in order to win the match, well, in that case, Jesus's body was the piece and God the player, why did God make that move?, well, we cannot know that, but it changed the way of the world. We are all pieces in God's chess, and, someday our bodies will be sacrificed too, for what reason?, for whatever we lived for, whatever we changed in the board of life and whatever we feed.
Pieces don't know what the player thinks, maybe Jesus himself didn't know why he had to sacrifice and he just did it but that's what he felt, or maybe everything was made up, after all, in some gnostic gospels he returns at the third day and people see him around again, but Church took those out of the bible because his image was more useful staying dead and nailed to the cross, that image creates a behavior in believers
Firstly, I should define my terms, as Socrates taught us to do. Love is the heartfelt wish that others learn and grow with minimum suffering. Love is not an affection but a wish from the heart that other's suffering be minimal as the lessons of life and of freewill be learnt. Forgiveness is love regardless. It is that part of love that we can direct towards things distasteful. Forgiveness is that part of love that enables us to love in all directions. Forgiveness is what enables us to love anyone, even those who do us harm.

Yes, forgiveness frees one from regret and shame, it heals all hurts, it frees us from toxic psychological conditions such as resentfulness, anger and every other damaging condition, personal and inter-relational. They are conditions that eat us up like acid, destroy our right thinking, corrode the mind, poison and disturb the emotions, make us mentally emotionally and physically sick, and spoil our relationships too. There is no hurt, no resentment, no regret or shame where there is forgiveness. Where there is forgiveness there is love, for forgiveness is love.

Regret and shame are the worst of human feelings. They are worse than loneliness, for even the lonely can live with their self. Forgiveness is how we take away the sins and guilt of others. Forgiveness relieves regret and shame.

"I forgive you", are probably the most powerful, the most effective words we can say. Those who have been truly sorry for what they have done, weighed down with regret and shame, and have had those words spoken to them, will know their power to relieve and liberate, to lift the weight of shame, to heal the soul, and the mind and heart, to lighten the body, and to mend relationships. Forgiveness truly is the most powerful medicine. And to whom it is needed, it is so easy to give.

Throughout the gospels Jesus teaches and demonstrates the power of love/forgiveness to heal us physically, mentally, emotionally, and our relationships. After the four gospels, St Paul and the other writers of the rest of the new testament carry on Christ's teaching of the power of love/forgiveness to heal and liberate. Every page of the new testament directly teaches that power, or supports the teaching of it. Not before and not since has the power of love been so completely taught.

Prior to the coming of Christ, love was only vaguely mentioned in the religions and philosophies of the world. Mostly, love was something that people had for their families and for people of their own kind. Love was not something that people had for their enemies. The notion of love was vaguely existent in some places, taught as a vague ideal, but nowhere was there a teaching where love's power to heal and liberate from suffering was consistently taught by explanation, instruction and demonstration, and in multi-leveled abstracted parables to suit every level of human understanding, page after page.

Not only did Jesus teach and demonstrate the power of love, but his life story is a model of that power. To read his life story in the gospels opens one's heart to understanding the power of love to heal all aspects of human life.

Jesus knew that to complete his teaching on forgiveness, to live and demonstrate forgiveness to the end, that he would have to be tortured and killed. He knew he would and must be sacrificed for his teaching to be complete. He frequently told his disciples that.

Jesus taught us how to forgive others even when we are feeling personally unable to do so, when we are hurt and exhausted. He taught us that at such times when we are weak and unable to forgive then we should ask God to forgive them, and that God would do accordingly.

Jesus demonstrated everything he taught. So when Jesus hung tortured and dying on the cross, he gave us his final lesson on forgiveness, demonstrating how forgiveness is given even under utter hurt, torture and personal exhaustion. He called out, "Father forgive them".

And so for probably the first time in history, and probably the only time, love/forgiveness was taught, explained and demonstrated to humanity in one man's life story, so impactfull that story that it has survived the ages. That story left us with an understanding that humanity did not have before of the power of love/forgiveness to heal. He left us with the understanding of how to take away the weight of each other's sins, how to relieve each other of regret, guilt and shame, how to heal our own and other's soul, and how to rectify our relationships.

To leave us with the understanding that through forgiveness and through prayer for others, that we can relieve each other of the weight of our sins, it required that he teach and demonstrate forgiveness throughout suffering inflicted on him by others, even unto exhaustion and death. And so it is said that "He died for our sins", that we may know how to relieve each other of the weight of our sins, and so relieve each other of regret and shame, and of resentment, hurt, anger, and all those destructive conditions that limit us, weigh us down, spoil our mental and physical health and our relationships.

The healing power of forgiveness that he taught us through his life, even to the cross, demonstrating forgiveness while dying at the hands of others, we can practice too, upon each other in our own lives. By practice, we can see in others and know in our selves the benefits of forgiveness.

We should forgive each other.

hehe funny

As individuals we may forgive, but State law still holds.

Unlike Islam which is a system of State laws (Sharia), Christianity is a means of individual living and heart, distinct from State law.
In Christianity we answer to the State and we answer to God, and they are two different things.
"Give to the State what you owe to the State, and to God what you owe to God." JC

Of course, there were times in history prior to the printing press when the masses were not fully cognizant of Gospel content and the priests were a little drunk on their own power. The boundaries between individual Christian living and State law got messed up, but any individual or institution can lose its way at times. The Church has been no exception. And in those days brutality existed within and without of Christendom. Life was brutal mostly everywhere.

Nowadays, the bible is distributed in every language and most of us can read and study it for ourselves, so if we want to know what it says, we can.
(07-30-2017, 09:36 PM)crossbow Wrote: "Give to the State what you owe to the State, and to God what you owe to God." JC.

I am not sure that is exactly correct. And personally I would cite the fact that Bishops sit in an unelected second house here in the UK & thus make laws as evidence of it's inaccuracy.
I would also point to the fact that in predominately Roman Catholic countries Abortions & Birth Control are universally unavailable as evidence that state, church & law are not separate entities.
The concept that the Church is part of the State & it's control system is not a new one, for example. Robert Tressell wrote in the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists:

Quote:…district visitors distributed tickets for coal and groceries. Not that that sort of thing made much difference; there was usually a great deal of fuss and advice, many quotations of Scripture, and very little groceries… These ‘charitable’ people went into the wretched homes of the poor and – in effect – said: ‘Abandon every particle of self-respect: cringe and fawn: come to church: bow down and grovel to us, and in return we’ll give you a ticket that you can take to a certain shop and exchange for a shillingworth of groceries. And if you’re very servile and humble we may give you another one next week.

They never gave the ‘case’ the money. The ticket system serves three purposes. It prevents the ‘case’ abusing the ‘charity’ by spending the money on drink. It advertises the benevolence of the donors: and it enables the grocer – who is usually a member of the church – to get rid of any stale or damaged stock he may have on hand.

A servile mass told not just what to think, but how to think it too, is not an accident of evolution. It's a considered reaction to the unbalance between the mass who are ruled by the few who rule.
Free thought is never a good idea in a system that pretends to be democratic & religion is the answer.

This Bishop looks at the sacrifice from a moral perspective and recognizes how immoral that concept is.

I will post a url when I review the forum rules and reach the required number of posts.

Rondele, I just ran across this and thought perhaps scripture itself would answer your question.

"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."

[Philippians 2:5-7]
(07-31-2017, 03:04 PM)Kai_ Wrote: Rondele, I just ran across this and thought perhaps scripture itself would answer your question.

"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."

[Philippians 2:5-7]

Jesus/Yahweh, indeed came to serve man. Scriptures also say that God never changes.

How is it then that most think that they have to serve or follow the commandments of the one who is a servant to them and should follow their commandments?

Continuing regarding forgiveness and its relation to sacrifice.

On a more occult or energetic level, genuine forgiveness attracts hostility from others. This is because forgiveness does not engage with incoming hostile energies, nor deflect them away, both of which enable hostile energy packages to return to their creator to be re-energised and re-expressed as is their natural cycle, (for the personality system operates cyclically - what we have thought and done before, we tend to think and do again). Rather than engage with or deflect incoming energies, forgiveness is an energy that absorbs and negates other energies, including absorbing and negating incoming hostile energies (like a foam wall absorbs and negates sound rather than vibrating in response to the sound or deflecting it back as an echo) and thus forgiveness relieves others of the circulating troublesome habits that they have become caught up in repeatedly expressing. These circulating packages of energy that comprise the personality are the elemental spirits that St Paul refers to in Galatians. With repeated circulation they get stronger than the individual can control, but Christ taught how to dissolve them in others and in our self, and so free our self and others from them. The new testament is sprinkled with references to how its prime teaching of forgiveness brings about hostility to the forgiver, but is in fact a service to the forgiven and a benefit to the forgiver too. Peter talks about this too, in his first letter. He also talks about the Christian's relationship to earthly authorities and government.

More so on the occult level, the heart is both the limit of the head and the enabler of the head. With prayer and faith, the heart swells with more forgiveness than the head is able to direct where needed, and so the heart expands the head's vision of others so that the forgiveness can be directed to who and where required. A forgiving heart opens our vision to other's struggles and problems. It enables one to see other's sins, so that the heart may express its forgiveness and relieve others of their problem/struggle if they truly want to be relieved. But of course if they are not fighting their problem then their being relieved of it will not even be noticed by them, for they will regenerate the problem's energy as it was before they were forgiven. But if they acknowledge their problem and are struggling to overcome it then forgiveness will relieve them of it. The empty space which is a mold of the problem remains in their personality structure though, and they must fill it with a healthy energy of their own such as thankfulness and/or forgiveness of their own towards others with the same and similar problem on similar frequency, so as to prevent themselves falling into activating that elemental frequency again and the space filling with its old elemental energy, and setting off their same old unwanted personality habit. If they do this correctly then they are properly relived and set free to move up to higher levels of personal operation.

Forgiveness is not blind. To the contrary, it sees more, and more clearly, than anything else can see. But the heart centre is not fooled or trifled with. If it is opened up by forgiveness to an extent where the forgiveness needs to further open up the mind and vision so that the forgiveness can fully express itself, but if then the individual does not forgive in others what he sees, but just looks, then the heart automatically shrinks and shuts down again, to only allow forgiveness to what the physical senses know of, and not to open again until the individual has thoroughly saturated their ability to forgive at that level, which can take a long time, maybe many life times. For me that mistake took about ten years of work before the heart would dare again stretch the limits of the head's perceptions. This is a safety thing, for such perception of others in an individual without a suitable heart would corrupt their soul.

It should be borne in mind that forgiveness is a spirit of its own. It is the spirit of love for earth, called Christ, and whose personification was/is Jesus. This spirit has its purpose to do, and only does that purpose. It is obedient to each of us, but only within the bounds of its purpose, so we must use it according to its purpose which are the laws of its usage. This spirit of love is the draw of God, the light and warmth of God. It is the only offspring of God. It was made for freewill, as a guide and aid/e, and will last as long as freewill takes to learn, to realise and to return.
I forgot to mention above: The reason a forgiving heart attracts hostility from others is because their soul even on a deep unconscious level wants freedom from its hostile tendencies which are binding habits preventing its liberty, and forgiveness can free it and grant that liberty. Deep down, even unconsciously, souls caught in binding habits of which they may have conflict in themselves between justifying them and resisting them, can vaguely sense the presence of a forgiving heart and its ability to relieve them of their problem and their internal discord, so they are attracted or drawn to act out their problem towards the person of that heart. It does not hurt the forgiving person though. There is no hurt where there is forgiveness.

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