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Religious fanatics or Psychological issue?
11-11-2016, 09:19 AM
Post: #11
RE: Religious fanatics or Psychological issue?
(11-10-2016 09:39 PM)Darkforeboding Wrote:  Hate and bigotry are not taught as precepts of normal mainstream Christian religions.

KKK is not part of a normal religion. I'm not reading that you were suggesting that they were, just wanted to clarify.

Islam once had a sect called the Assassins, which is where we get the word assassin, that smoked hashish (part of the etymology of the word assassin) and killed hundreds of people as part of their belief. They were not part of the normal mainstream Islamic religion. Even the typically peaceful Hindu religion once had an extremely murderous sect that terrorized people in India. Saying that the KKK is Christian doesn't mean that all Christians are in the KKK.

In addition, most Christians would tell you that the KKK's failure to follow accepted Biblical teaching such as "love thy neighbor" and "faith, hope, and charity" would make them non-Christian, in spite of their belief in Jesus, in the same way that I believe in Buddha but am not Buddhist.

Also, just for reference sake, I consider myself Christian and I didn't vote for Trump.

-DFB

Subject: I have a black cat.
Believer: Black cats are bad luck.
Non-believer: It's just a cat.
Crackpot: Black cats are part of the New World Order government conspiracy.
Skeptic: I can test if black cats are more or less lucky than another cat.
Cynic: You only have a black cat to gain power and prestige.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9iIf4tFoyE
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11-11-2016, 12:16 PM (This post was last modified: 11-11-2016 12:32 PM by ChaosRose.)
Post: #12
RE: Religious fanatics or Psychological issue?
(11-11-2016 09:19 AM)Darkforeboding Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 09:39 PM)Darkforeboding Wrote:  Hate and bigotry are not taught as precepts of normal mainstream Christian religions.

KKK is not part of a normal religion. I'm not reading that you were suggesting that they were, just wanted to clarify.

Islam once had a sect called the Assassins, which is where we get the word assassin, that smoked hashish (part of the etymology of the word assassin) and killed hundreds of people as part of their belief. They were not part of the normal mainstream Islamic religion. Even the typically peaceful Hindu religion once had an extremely murderous sect that terrorized people in India. Saying that the KKK is Christian doesn't mean that all Christians are in the KKK.

In addition, most Christians would tell you that the KKK's failure to follow accepted Biblical teaching such as "love thy neighbor" and "faith, hope, and charity" would make them non-Christian, in spite of their belief in Jesus, in the same way that I believe in Buddha but am not Buddhist.

Also, just for reference sake, I consider myself Christian and I didn't vote for Trump.

Everyone seems to love to set themselves apart by saying those people over there aren't "real" Christians or Muslims or whatever. The fact of the matter is...a lot of KKK members are just W.A.S.P.s. They go to mainstream churches. And they're just interpreting the bible, differently. Indeed, the bible was used to defend slavery and to promote anti-Semitism. You can find it in there if you look for it.

You can try to call them "fringe Christians," but that would only hold up if they were the Christian Identity type. The Protestant KKK members are going to mainstream Christian churches. It's just when they hear the sermon, it somehow sounds different to them.

It's kind of like saying people who discriminate against gays due to being Christian aren't Christian...although the bible tells them to do just that (in fact it says kill them). The bible also says that slavery is A-OK.

The bottom line is that the bible sends a lot of mixed messages because there were a bunch of different people writing it. They're Christian...they're just focusing on different passages than you are.
I know everyone claims that the supposed words of Jesus are all about love and compassion. Indeed, some of them are. But it also says he only came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

Everyone's trying to be the Chosen People. Some do it by convincing themselves that later scripture claims they can also claim Jesus as their Savior. Some do it by figuring they have only correct interpretation of the bible.

Others do it by convincing themselves that they are indeed the lost sheep of the House of Israel, and that those other people over there are impostors.

Maybe if folks would just say I believe in love and compassion, but not attach themselves so much to dusty tomes written in the Bronze Age, we wouldn't have so many problems.
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11-11-2016, 01:47 PM (This post was last modified: 11-11-2016 01:50 PM by Darkforeboding.)
Post: #13
RE: Religious fanatics or Psychological issue?
(11-11-2016 12:16 PM)ChaosRose Wrote:  Everyone seems to love to set themselves apart by saying those people over there aren't "real" Christians or Muslims or whatever. The fact of the matter is...a lot of KKK members are just W.A.S.P.s. They go to mainstream churches. And they're just interpreting the bible, differently. Indeed, the bible was used to defend slavery and to promote anti-Semitism. You can find it in there if you look for it.

You can try to call them "fringe Christians," but that would only hold up if they were the Christian Identity type. The Protestant KKK members are going to mainstream Christian churches. It's just when they hear the sermon, it somehow sounds different to them.

It's kind of like saying people who discriminate against gays due to being Christian aren't Christian...although the bible tells them to do just that (in fact it says kill them). The bible also says that slavery is A-OK.

The bottom line is that the bible sends a lot of mixed messages because there were a bunch of different people writing it. They're Christian...they're just focusing on different passages than you are.
I know everyone claims that the supposed words of Jesus are all about love and compassion. Indeed, some of them are. But it also says he only came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

<snip>

That's why I refrain from using the phrase "real" Christian and instead have used the words "normal" and "mainstream" Christian. No, you will not find a lot of KKK members (nowadays) attending mainstream Christian churches, at least, by and large. I know. I've met some. Yes, probably prior to 1960, but not now. The KKK is a far different group now that in the early 20th century and allies itself with skinheads, Aryan Brotherhood, and other groups. No self respecting group in the 1940's would ally themselves with a group calling themselves by the mythical German race invented by Nazis.

And, yes, people have used scripture in and out of context to support all kinds of things. They not only used it to support slavery they also used scripture to support abolition. Early abolitionists were typically church groups. The Bible sends mixed messages in small passages of scripture, but many Biblical scholars will tell you that it doesn't send mixed messages when taken in context.

Look, if I'm droning on about Christianity it's because I've grown tired of the Christian religion getting the blame for whatever and getting ridiculed for a belief that is no more unusual than any other religious belief. I can't read an article on cosmology without someone making the comment similar to "those stupid Christians think the universe is 6,000 years old." Never "those stupid Hassidic Jews and Muslims believe the universe is 6,000 years old." A while back I was arguing on this site with someone that ridiculed the Christian belief and at the same time thought the world was run by alien reptile creatures.

People want to look at Christianity and see the Spanish Inquisition and Cardinal Richleu (spelling?). I prefer to look at Christianity and see Saint Francis and Mother Theresa. People want to look at scripture and see "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." I look at scripture and see "do unto others" and "turn the other cheek." People want to look a churches and see Joel Osteen and a mega-church. For every mega-church you show me I can show you ten that probably had less than 100 members last Sunday.

-DFB

Subject: I have a black cat.
Believer: Black cats are bad luck.
Non-believer: It's just a cat.
Crackpot: Black cats are part of the New World Order government conspiracy.
Skeptic: I can test if black cats are more or less lucky than another cat.
Cynic: You only have a black cat to gain power and prestige.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9iIf4tFoyE
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11-12-2016, 09:50 AM
Post: #14
RE: Religious fanatics or Psychological issue?
(11-11-2016 01:47 PM)Darkforeboding Wrote:  
(11-11-2016 12:16 PM)ChaosRose Wrote:  Everyone seems to love to set themselves apart by saying those people over there aren't "real" Christians or Muslims or whatever. The fact of the matter is...a lot of KKK members are just W.A.S.P.s. They go to mainstream churches. And they're just interpreting the bible, differently. Indeed, the bible was used to defend slavery and to promote anti-Semitism. You can find it in there if you look for it.

You can try to call them "fringe Christians," but that would only hold up if they were the Christian Identity type. The Protestant KKK members are going to mainstream Christian churches. It's just when they hear the sermon, it somehow sounds different to them.

It's kind of like saying people who discriminate against gays due to being Christian aren't Christian...although the bible tells them to do just that (in fact it says kill them). The bible also says that slavery is A-OK.

The bottom line is that the bible sends a lot of mixed messages because there were a bunch of different people writing it. They're Christian...they're just focusing on different passages than you are.
I know everyone claims that the supposed words of Jesus are all about love and compassion. Indeed, some of them are. But it also says he only came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

<snip>

That's why I refrain from using the phrase "real" Christian and instead have used the words "normal" and "mainstream" Christian. No, you will not find a lot of KKK members (nowadays) attending mainstream Christian churches, at least, by and large. I know. I've met some. Yes, probably prior to 1960, but not now. The KKK is a far different group now that in the early 20th century and allies itself with skinheads, Aryan Brotherhood, and other groups. No self respecting group in the 1940's would ally themselves with a group calling themselves by the mythical German race invented by Nazis.

And, yes, people have used scripture in and out of context to support all kinds of things. They not only used it to support slavery they also used scripture to support abolition. Early abolitionists were typically church groups. The Bible sends mixed messages in small passages of scripture, but many Biblical scholars will tell you that it doesn't send mixed messages when taken in context.

Look, if I'm droning on about Christianity it's because I've grown tired of the Christian religion getting the blame for whatever and getting ridiculed for a belief that is no more unusual than any other religious belief. I can't read an article on cosmology without someone making the comment similar to "those stupid Christians think the universe is 6,000 years old." Never "those stupid Hassidic Jews and Muslims believe the universe is 6,000 years old." A while back I was arguing on this site with someone that ridiculed the Christian belief and at the same time thought the world was run by alien reptile creatures.

People want to look at Christianity and see the Spanish Inquisition and Cardinal Richleu (spelling?). I prefer to look at Christianity and see Saint Francis and Mother Theresa. People want to look at scripture and see "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." I look at scripture and see "do unto others" and "turn the other cheek." People want to look a churches and see Joel Osteen and a mega-church. For every mega-church you show me I can show you ten that probably had less than 100 members last Sunday.

It sends mixed messages in its most basic principles. On one hand it's an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...vengeance is mine, saith the Lord. On the other hand love your neighbor, do good to those who hurt you, turn the other cheek.

Those couldn't be farther apart.

That's why you get Mother Theresas and St. Francises, but also Hitler and the KKK (yes, Hitler was also Christian and used the bible to promote Nazism).

It's also interesting that you bring up megachurches, because those are the places that are rocking now. The more progressive churches are dwindling and the megachurches are thriving. They don't have a very ecumenical message, either.

Don't get me wrong...it's great that you look at scripture and get a message of love, but there are several other messages that people can get, depending on what they're looking for in there.
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11-12-2016, 04:22 PM (This post was last modified: 11-12-2016 04:24 PM by Darkforeboding.)
Post: #15
RE: Religious fanatics or Psychological issue?
I respectfully disagree with your allegation that Hitler was Christian. He was attempting to turn Germany back to an old mystic religion that he thought or contended was the original religion of the mythical Aryan race. That is why he used so many symbols such as the swastika which was not a Christian symbol at all but a high-jacked symbol from many years ago.

Yes, if you want to try using the law of Moses, which was intended to govern the twelve tribes of Israel when they were living in the wilderness and later as a fledging nation, you get "an eye for an eye." You also get laws about how much to tithe, what type of sacrifices you make for certain offenses, and laws against eating pork and shellfish. If you don't want to do that you have to assume that those laws are no longer in effect. Better to try using laws from the New Testament that teach mercy, sacrifice, and leading by example.

And you're mixing things a bit. "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord" is a warning not to take things into your own hands but to let God be the judge.

-DFB

Subject: I have a black cat.
Believer: Black cats are bad luck.
Non-believer: It's just a cat.
Crackpot: Black cats are part of the New World Order government conspiracy.
Skeptic: I can test if black cats are more or less lucky than another cat.
Cynic: You only have a black cat to gain power and prestige.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9iIf4tFoyE
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11-12-2016, 06:39 PM
Post: #16
RE: Religious fanatics or Psychological issue?
Christian means 'Christ Within'. Hitler hated Jews which Christ Jesus was.
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11-13-2016, 10:04 AM
Post: #17
RE: Religious fanatics or Psychological issue?
(11-12-2016 06:39 PM)Itheblaze Wrote:  Christian means 'Christ Within'. Hitler hated Jews which Christ Jesus was.

Chris·tian
ˈkrisCHən/
adjective
1.
of, relating to, or professing Christianity or its teachings.
"the Christian Church"
noun
1.
a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings

People make up alternate definitions to suit them. If you believe that Jesus is your Savior, then you're Christian. Hitler believed it. He hated Jews for killing his Messiah. Indeed, the Passion has been used to foment hatred for Jews.
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11-13-2016, 10:41 AM
Post: #18
RE: Religious fanatics or Psychological issue?
Lol! Yeah, allrighty then! Hitler loved Jesus and was a Christian, lol!
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11-13-2016, 12:59 PM
Post: #19
RE: Religious fanatics or Psychological issue?
I am posting text captured from the Wikipedia article on Adolf Hitler. Decide for yourself.

Hitler was born to a practising Catholic mother and an anticlerical father; after leaving home Hitler never again attended Mass or received the sacraments.[369][370][371] Speer states that Hitler made harsh pronouncements against the church to his political associates and though he never officially left it, he had no attachment to it.[372] He adds that Hitler felt that in the absence of the church the faithful would turn to mysticism, which he considered a step backwards.[372] According to Speer, Hitler believed that either Japanese religious beliefs or Islam would have been a more suitable religion for the Germans than Christianity, with its "meekness and flabbiness".[373]

Historian John S. Conway states that Hitler was fundamentally opposed to the Christian churches.[374] According to Bullock, Hitler did not believe in God, was anticlerical, and held Christian ethics in contempt because they contravened his preferred view of "survival of the fittest".[375] He favoured aspects of Protestantism that suited his own views, and adopted some elements of the Catholic Church's hierarchical organisation, liturgy, and phraseology in his politics.[376]

Hitler viewed the church as an important politically conservative influence on society,[377] and he adopted a strategic relationship with it that "suited his immediate political purposes".[374] In public, Hitler often praised Christian heritage and German Christian culture, though professing a belief in an "Aryan Jesus", one who fought against the Jews.[378] Any pro-Christian public rhetoric was at variance with his private statements, which described Christianity as "absurdity"[379] and nonsense founded on lies.[380]

According to a U.S. Office of Strategic Services report, "The Nazi Master Plan", Hitler planned to destroy the influence of Christian churches within the Reich.[381][382] His eventual goal was the total elimination of Christianity.[383] This goal informed Hitler's movement early on, but he saw it as inexpedient to express this extreme position publicly.[384] According to Bullock, Hitler wanted to wait until after the war before executing this plan.[385]

Speer wrote that Hitler had a negative view of Himmler's and Alfred Rosenberg's mystical notions and Himmler's attempt to mythologise the SS. Hitler was more pragmatic, and his ambitions centred on more practical concerns.[386][387]

-DFB

Subject: I have a black cat.
Believer: Black cats are bad luck.
Non-believer: It's just a cat.
Crackpot: Black cats are part of the New World Order government conspiracy.
Skeptic: I can test if black cats are more or less lucky than another cat.
Cynic: You only have a black cat to gain power and prestige.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9iIf4tFoyE
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11-13-2016, 05:22 PM
Post: #20
RE: Religious fanatics or Psychological issue?
I don't think it matters what a person believes, if they are hateful they will find a way to justify their hate, plain and simple.
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