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Jesus never existed
01-21-2016, 06:53 PM
Post: #11
RE: Jesus never existed
The way i see it we all can perform such miracles. Religion should be historic instead of a practical faith. We'll never know what the universe beholds for us, because our universe is fortified by walls, regulated by courts, and documented in categories.
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02-11-2016, 02:00 AM
Post: #12
RE: Jesus never existed
Another interesting note.
The time line of Jesus makes no sense.
Allot of documentation for instance states that Pilat was not the head of the Roman Army at the time of Jesus's Crusifiction. And he had no record of the event.

It's also a problem that the Romans didn't Crucify people for the crimes that Jesus was accused of. Or Murder or Thievery... So really non of the men should have been there. (They would have all been stoned for there crimes)

There are tons of Jewish scholars at the time who should have know of Jesus but never wrote anything.

Its much more likely that he was a kind of combination of many self-proclaimed prophets from the time.
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02-11-2016, 10:51 AM
Post: #13
RE: Jesus never existed
We have a habit of seeing things in history with the same eyes that we see things today. Two thousand years ago there was very little structure to the government. If you had a friend in a position of power you got favors and they did you favors so you would do favors for them. If you went to trial you could bribe the judge, openly, and get a favorable judgment. Was Pilate in charge of the Roman Army? Maybe not, but he was powerful enough that he had people that did what he told them. Did he do things that he thought would be to his advantage? Definitely. The Biblical account says that he had Jesus crucified to curry favor with the Jewish priesthood and that is very plausible. Records? Why make a record of some upstart causing trouble that they silenced by snuffing him out? That's what happens when you defy the Roman Empire.

Whether being crucified was the prescribed punishment for defying Caesar, theft, or other crimes doesn't mean that Pilate didn't have the power to get it done. They used it both before and after the time. But actually making up being crucified as opposed to being stoned? No, if Jesus had been stoned there would be a big rock at the front of every church now, instead of a cross.

In my opinion there were probably only 100, maybe 150 really active participants in the Gospels. Maybe 200. That was in an area with, what?, maybe 10,000 people and no newspaper or radio? I live in a town of 4,000 and don't hear about things. What? The school band is hosting a fund-raiser? The mayor is visiting our sister city in Germany? I'm not surprised most people didn't hear of Jesus. The major growth in the church started with the book of Acts.

Combination of self-proclaimed prophets? Possible. There was even a couple mentioned in the Gospels and one of them was also named Jesus.

-DFB

Subject: I have a black cat.
Believer: Black cats are bad luck.
Non-believer: It's just a cat.
Crackpot: Black cats are part of the New World Order government conspiracy.
Skeptic: I can test if black cats are more or less lucky than another cat.
Cynic: You only have a black cat to gain power and prestige.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9iIf4tFoyE
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02-12-2016, 02:05 AM
Post: #14
RE: Jesus never existed
According to the Romans there where 603,000 people in the area at the time. (Over 40'000 in Jerusalem at the time)

And no no, my point was not that Jesus was stoned... My point was that the Jesus crusifiction story was made up after the fact.

And you are correct that we apply modern things to ancient stories. But we are talking about Rome here, they are one of the two great record keeping civilization in history. They where actually much more advanced in a civil sense then Europre was say 1000-1400 years later.

But yes, I find it most likely that Jesus is a combination of many diffrent people put together over the years.
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02-12-2016, 03:23 AM
Post: #15
RE: Jesus never existed
(02-12-2016 02:05 AM)blackstarraven Wrote:  And no no, my point was not that Jesus was stoned... My point was that the Jesus crusifiction story was made up after the fact.

Yes, I understood that point. My point was "why make up crucifiction?" If stoning had been the punishment and the death of Jesus was fabricated why not say that he was stoned? Because the cross was a better trademark?

-DFB

Subject: I have a black cat.
Believer: Black cats are bad luck.
Non-believer: It's just a cat.
Crackpot: Black cats are part of the New World Order government conspiracy.
Skeptic: I can test if black cats are more or less lucky than another cat.
Cynic: You only have a black cat to gain power and prestige.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9iIf4tFoyE
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02-12-2016, 04:42 PM
Post: #16
RE: Jesus never existed
(02-12-2016 03:23 AM)Darkforeboding Wrote:  
(02-12-2016 02:05 AM)blackstarraven Wrote:  And no no, my point was not that Jesus was stoned... My point was that the Jesus crusifiction story was made up after the fact.

Yes, I understood that point. My point was "why make up crucifiction?" If stoning had been the punishment and the death of Jesus was fabricated why not say that he was stoned? Because the cross was a better trademark?


Well to be honest... Yes.
Crucifiction is a much worse way to go. It allows more story telling as well, you don't really linger when you get stoned. It was also a symbol of Roman occupation. Most information we have also say that Crucifiction was quickly falling out of style by the time the NT was actually written down.

Its much like the stories of Romans feeding Christians to Lions.... You know it omits or made up the fact. (Christians where actually only fed to lions AFTER Christianity became the official religion of Rome, they fed Christians who did not agree with there brand of Christianity to lions)

Which bring up another point. The Jesus story we have now, is the agreed on one. The church removed 14 entire books from the bible allot of them where attributed to people who should have known Jesus in his day and age. Its odd they would remove those don't you think?

Hell the NT even makes more sense if you include the 14 books. (Book of Judas more then others oddly enough)
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02-13-2016, 01:21 AM
Post: #17
RE: Jesus never existed
Funny enough those who believe believe they will know soon enough. For those who do not believe, what difference can it possibly make?
Believers have nothing to loose and everything to gain.
Non-believers have everything to loose and nothing to gain.

Before you take any decision, consider its effect on the next seven generations.
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02-13-2016, 04:30 AM
Post: #18
RE: Jesus never existed
(02-11-2016 10:51 AM)Darkforeboding Wrote:  We have a habit of seeing things in history with the same eyes that we see things today. Two thousand years ago there was very little structure to the government. If you had a friend in a position of power you got favors and they did you favors so you would do favors for them. If you went to trial you could bribe the judge, openly, and get a favorable judgment. Was Pilate in charge of the Roman Army? Maybe not, but he was powerful enough that he had people that did what he told them. Did he do things that he thought would be to his advantage? Definitely. The Biblical account says that he had Jesus crucified to curry favor with the Jewish priesthood and that is very plausible. Records? Why make a record of some upstart causing trouble that they silenced by snuffing him out? That's what happens when you defy the Roman Empire.

Whether being crucified was the prescribed punishment for defying Caesar, theft, or other crimes doesn't mean that Pilate didn't have the power to get it done. They used it both before and after the time. But actually making up being crucified as opposed to being stoned? No, if Jesus had been stoned there would be a big rock at the front of every church now, instead of a cross.

In my opinion there were probably only 100, maybe 150 really active participants in the Gospels. Maybe 200. That was in an area with, what?, maybe 10,000 people and no newspaper or radio? I live in a town of 4,000 and don't hear about things. What? The school band is hosting a fund-raiser? The mayor is visiting our sister city in Germany? I'm not surprised most people didn't hear of Jesus. The major growth in the church started with the book of Acts.

Combination of self-proclaimed prophets? Possible. There was even a couple mentioned in the Gospels and one of them was also named Jesus.

Funny that you doubt people's experiences on here and yet you believe a man walked on water and rose from the dead.
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02-13-2016, 10:23 AM
Post: #19
RE: Jesus never existed
Yeah, but I haven't been debunked.

-DFB

Subject: I have a black cat.
Believer: Black cats are bad luck.
Non-believer: It's just a cat.
Crackpot: Black cats are part of the New World Order government conspiracy.
Skeptic: I can test if black cats are more or less lucky than another cat.
Cynic: You only have a black cat to gain power and prestige.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9iIf4tFoyE
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02-13-2016, 11:40 PM (This post was last modified: 02-13-2016 11:44 PM by Darkforeboding.)
Post: #20
RE: Jesus never existed
(02-12-2016 04:42 PM)blackstarraven Wrote:  Well to be honest... Yes.
Crucifiction is a much worse way to go. It allows more story telling as well, you don't really linger when you get stoned. It was also a symbol of Roman occupation. Most information we have also say that Crucifiction was quickly falling out of style by the time the NT was actually written down.

Its much like the stories of Romans feeding Christians to Lions.... You know it omits or made up the fact. (Christians where actually only fed to lions AFTER Christianity became the official religion of Rome, they fed Christians who did not agree with there brand of Christianity to lions)

Which bring up another point. The Jesus story we have now, is the agreed on one. The church removed 14 entire books from the bible allot of them where attributed to people who should have known Jesus in his day and age. Its odd they would remove those don't you think?

Hell the NT even makes more sense if you include the 14 books. (Book of Judas more then others oddly enough)

Ridiculous. The persecution of Christians by Nero after the burning of Rome is so universally recognized as to be common knowledge. The historian Eusebias records cases of Christian persecution under the Emperor Marcus Aurelius that included being fed to beasts in the arena. Other persecution might have been sporadic, but it did occur.

The early church authorities did exclude the 14 books you mentioned and probably other books as well, including the other books from the Old Testament that were considered apocryphal. It had not so much to do with a desire to hide the truth as it did to remove writings that they considered heretical. The early Christian church was full of differing views on the nature of Jesus and several writings were produced to try to support claims of other factions. The simple fact that most of these were produced several hundred years after the other Gospels should alert anyone to that fact.

Ok, so your belief is that the cross was made up because it made a better story?

-DFB

Subject: I have a black cat.
Believer: Black cats are bad luck.
Non-believer: It's just a cat.
Crackpot: Black cats are part of the New World Order government conspiracy.
Skeptic: I can test if black cats are more or less lucky than another cat.
Cynic: You only have a black cat to gain power and prestige.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9iIf4tFoyE
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