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EVP is not evidence of ghosts
#11
(09-03-2013, 07:59 PM)UglyNRude Wrote: Once again a cynic is the opposite of a believer, a skeptic is open to proof and relies on facts not pseudoscience.

You would think one of these days that they would get the definition right. Both sides have to be examined and EVP..you only provided one side. UNR showed the other. Ignoring the criticism will not make it go away. You say skeptics dismiss everything..yet you dismiss the link UNR provided. You say you rely on your investigations, but you brought up past research to attempt proving your point. With all due respect, it sounds like there might be a bit of pre-conceived bias in your...investigations.

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” ~Philip K. Dick

http://paranormalinreview2.zohosites.com/home.html

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#12
Lets go back and look at older recorders, reel to reel. What could they pick up? motor noise, tape noise, tape stretching, noise left if reused. Easily interfered with from many type radios. I personally discovered this as I destroyed a friends recording session from miles away. Lets even look deeper, a reel to reel is capable of receiving fm radio. Now as technology increases who can rule out even more interference. So this is only a small portion of the interference. We also need to look at audio pareidolia which is seen every day. With all this how can claims evp is the dead?
Belief bias occurs when we make illogical conclusions in order to confirm our preexisting beliefs. Belief perseverance refers to our tendency to maintain a belief even after the evidence we used to form the belief is contradicted.
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#13
To me, all this camera carry on is like having to take a photo of the sun to prove it exists.
I don't see how, for a major part of paranormal stuff, it can be proven by any equipment because compared to the human brain, such equipment is lacking the vital ingredient, I.E. the part of the human that sees such stuff. Instead of using equipment why not use the infinitive equipment in one's head.
A question can disturb the mind's focus, can be mental assault sometimes, an obstruction in the clear mind. I'm not sure that questions can exist in such realms, something like that, there's some sort of incompatibility between the critical mind and seeing paranormally, i think critical mind has to be applied to the manifestations themselves rather than to the people that see the manifestations, excepting the frauds of course. And also it is conceivable that all is in the mind anyway, which could mean that maybe there is a world in there, or perhaps a portal or two. All is here on Earth maybe. But even so, there is a great desire to know, who knows? But does one always want there to be something that has not yet been conquered, mental or otherwise, and so the eternal torture, at least it's eternal, for a while anyway. I cannot understand where all these entities, a general label, live. In a human? Everything needs shelter from the storm, or unfriendly zero. There are no formulae to prove it, to prove what the it is. It's too scary for that, that would be finity, no one wants that. Basically i'm saying that the mind plays a serious major role in all human drama, and to say it is all in one's mind, may have more meaning than one originally conceived of. Ok gotta go.
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#14
Jonathan..no disrespect intended...but I have absolutely no idea what any of that has to do with the topic at hand.
“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” ~Philip K. Dick

http://paranormalinreview2.zohosites.com/home.html

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#15
Use a faraday cage with a properly grounded source to ensure radio waves, television interference and such can be ruled out. Use a bell jar to ensure it's not a human voice sound being recorded. Use a proper audio program and understand it's usage and the characteristic of these oddities. Rely on your own research as a base and communicate with knowledgable sources. David Rountree set an excellent example of controls and found some interesting information about EVP by applying hypothesis based experimentation in 1994. As a sound engineer by profession, he understands the limitations of his equipment. Is EVP the existance of the dead? No but it deserves to be studied.
[Image: 2pzabo5.jpg]
"Men who have excessive faith in their theories and ideas are not only ill
prepared in making discoveries; they also make poor observations."
---Claude Bernard---
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#16
(09-05-2013, 01:01 AM)EVP Wrote: Is EVP the existance of the dead? No but it deserves to be studied.

So then you agree EVP is not proof of communication with the other side. I do agree it needs to be studied to find and rule out other causes. The problem is MOST teams capture explainable noise then run to the client and replay the voice and tell them its a ghost. How many teams do you see claiming to capture an evp then say the reversed it, sped it up, slowed it down, removed noise. It is easy to change a sound to make it seem like many words with software. So with so many people doing it wrong and so many not even knowing what they are recording once again I tell people not to assume EVP is a ghost


How many teams do evp work properly? How many monitor the complete environment to explain unknown noises? How many know what frequency ranges evp are captured in? How many use the wrong type of microphone and wrong settings? Now you are focused on EVP what information do you have in your data base? that your willing to show? Example frequency, wave patterns? What microphones should be avoided. How does an evp change with a free software as opposed to something like adobe audition. Statistics and lots of them can explain many things even patterns so you recognize a direction to pursue. How about antenna's, towers, from cb, radio, cell towers, private towers and distances? Do you document this? or even locate them?

I will not even acknowledge the person you named as a scientist. Its all about attention and gullible people. Have you ever questioned his work? or tried to hold a discussion? Have you ever put his claims under a microscope? You might be surprised.
Belief bias occurs when we make illogical conclusions in order to confirm our preexisting beliefs. Belief perseverance refers to our tendency to maintain a belief even after the evidence we used to form the belief is contradicted.
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#17
We must also realize that "proof" and "evidence" are not the same thing. YES there is evidence.

But in fact there can be a lot of evidence for 'something' even if it is untrue. Look at court cases and trials. There can be evidence that a certain person committed a crime yet that person is found to be innocent.

Personally I have a hard time believing that a spirit (whatever they may be) can be captured either in a photo or an audio recording. I have listened to a lot of EVPs on different websites and, at least to me, I havent heard any that I would accept as solid proof.

My main point really is that "evidence" and "proof" do not mean the same thing although they are often used interchangeably. And also that there CAN be evidence for a case or a theory even if it is untrue.

The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it. ~ Terry Pratchett

The Paranormal Beliefs Survey  ~^*White face*^~  Paranormal Questions & Answers
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#18
(09-05-2013, 04:56 AM)UglyNRude Wrote:
(09-05-2013, 01:01 AM)EVP Wrote: Is EVP the existance of the dead? No but it deserves to be studied.

So then you agree EVP is not proof of communication with the other side. I do agree it needs to be studied to find and rule out other causes.

If you read any of my posts, you will never see a mention by myself that "I" believe they were ghosts. The closest I have come to opening admitting what "I" believe was "unknown".

I have only once has communication from Q&A and only once. It lasted 20 seconds perhaps and then ended. I have only "once" heard real-time my first and last name called out in my own house at 3:15 am and I was the only occupant. My sample was recorded validating what I was monitoring.

Have I shared my finding? Absolutely, I have with presentations to those that are open and have an honest interest along with fellow audio explorers I respect.

Again your welcome to have your opinion and I have respect for Raudive despite skeptical bashing by yourself and others.

I have found patterns from these oddities as mentioned but this will never be a debate on what one believes or doesn't who who believes one source is valid or not.

I persue this from my own self interest and have been trained in audio software use dedicated, microphones, xlr cabling, shielded recorders and do my very best to administer controls.

An endless loop of belief on either side battering back and forth is fruitless and wasteful. A sharing of knowledge from both sides is needed to succeed.
[Image: 2pzabo5.jpg]
"Men who have excessive faith in their theories and ideas are not only ill
prepared in making discoveries; they also make poor observations."
---Claude Bernard---
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#19
Why not share knowledge to stop people from making mistakes. Like condenser microphones, some will pick up radio. Dynamic mics are not as good for low volume. What Mhz is unknown evp captured. Not walking around with your recorder. Not setting your recorder on an object that will carry sound. Time stamping everything, using multiple cameras to find sources of man made noise.
Belief bias occurs when we make illogical conclusions in order to confirm our preexisting beliefs. Belief perseverance refers to our tendency to maintain a belief even after the evidence we used to form the belief is contradicted.
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#20
I look at it this way. All this tech stuff is fun to play with and almost all of it 99.9% of it is garble, but there is always that other 0.1%. The experiences I can't explain are shared sightings of apparitions with other people present from other positions in the rooms when it occurred and separate independent verbal descriptions on tape recorders of what was seen at the time it happened. You can believe me or not and frankly you are not going to unconvince me that what I saw was unnormal, just like I'm not going to convince any of you that it was.

I do believe there is more to the world that meets the eye. I think that much of the tech toys people play with cannot legitimately capture anything in most cases. And no one wants to do serious research into seeing if there is something that can. It's really an impasse because you have people who will think their own shadow is a ghost at one end of the spectrum and you have hardcore realists at the other end. The gullible cannot be convinced their shadow isn't a ghost and the realist cannot be convinced the phantom that is standing in front of them truly is supernatural. So in a world like that, there really is no debate.

The only thing it does do is create interesting discussions like this one I suppose, because we aren't going to change each other's minds so apparently we just collectively enjoy beating each other over the head so to speak.
Peace,

David

"There are more things in Heaven and earth Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy".

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